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English > Community > Interviews > John Meyers

This interview took place on August 8, 2001, at the Shining Mountain Ranch, in Sula, Montana, USA. John Meyers (the manager of the ranch) generously donated his time and thoughts to ThinkQuest Team C0119184's Josh Schwartzman, and the team greatly thanks him. RealPlayer is required to view/listen to the audio and video clips of the interview. The whole interview is available for listening to, but only video excerpts are available because of file sizes.
If you don't have RealPlayer, you may download it at www.real.com

Quick Reading/Listening/Viewing Guide:

Text:
(Please note, that to understand some of the information, you may have to read earlier parts of the interview. Also, the description here is only part of what is contained in each section of the interview)
:: Preventing the fire
:: Location of the ranch
:: The devastation
:: Could they have done more?
:: Frustrations
:: The ground is torched
:: Losses
:: Mudslides
:: Could it have been prevented?
:: Management problems
:: We were threatened
:: The wind
:: The future
:: Policies, and a difference of opinions

Video:
:: The devastation [0:46 min]
:: Could it have been prevented? [1:07 min]

Audio:
The Whole Interview [18:09 min]
:: Preventing the fire [0:47 min]
:: Location of the ranch [0:50 min]
:: The devastation [1:37 min]
:: Could they have done more? [1:57 min]
:: Frustrations [1:41 min]
:: The ground is torched [1:03 min]
:: Losses [1:33 min]
:: Mudslides [0:51 min]
:: Could it have been prevented? [1:01 min]
:: Management problems [1:11 min]
:: We were threatened [1:00 min]
:: The wind [1:02 min]
:: The future [0:45 min]
:: Policies, and a difference of opinions [2:32 min]

Listen [0:47 min]			Preventing the fire \| top of the page John: We've got stories that are just unbelievable- stupidity, lack of concern, and stuff like that. Josh: Yeah, ok. That's what you feel most strongly about, so… John: Well I think so. We could have prevented a lot of this fire, going this way, if they would have chose to fight fire, but they chose not to fight fire. Josh: Ok, so we can talk about that, and what you were feeling at the time, and also, did you do a lot of stuff with the community, or were you mostly out here? John: I never left this place. Josh: Oh, yeah. John: I was out here almost 30 days. It was sealed off- you couldn't get in or out, so I was out here all 30 days.

Listen [0:50 min]			Location of the ranch \| top of the page Josh: Ok. Maybe you just want to tell us about where this ranch is located, and what your job is to do here. John: Well, this is the Shining Mountain Ranch. It's located in Sula, Montana. We sit about eight miles back off French Basin road, so, it's an isolated ranch, at the end of the road, in here. We sit kind of in a horseshoe, and we're surrounded by state forest, and then we're surrounded by the Forest Service property. So, if you went this way, going east, you could ride clear to Anaconda [Montana]. Josh: There's really no way to get out except for the one direction. John: Well, no, we could get out over 2 Percent Saddle, or go down French Basin Road.

Watch (It covers the first part of this section) [0:46 min] Listen [1:37 min]			The devastation \| top of the page Josh: Well, I guess we'll start on the fires of last year. What made the biggest impact on you, from the fires- what really affected you the most? John: Well, I think the devastation. I've never been around a fire like this. When it came over the hill, and went down our east side, it roared like the Colorado River. The noise level was just unbelievable. When it started going down south, it created its own wind. We had a terrific wind coming from the east, because it was just sucking the oxygen, out of it. My main fear [was], first off, we had cattle up here, so we had to get them- Josh: Did you evacuate them? John: Well, we moved them to a different pasture, and then we moved them to a different pasture- trying to get all of them safe. Then, our main concern was, we've got quite a set of buildings here, so we came here, started moving machinery out of the buildings. I've got a John Deere tractor- we hooked a big plow to it, put the dozer [bulldozer] blade on it, just in case we needed it. It was real hectic there for about the first four to five hours, because we didn't know which way this fire was going to go. And then, probably late afternoon, we started getting fire engines, come up here. The first night, the first time, we had eight fire engines here, and then after that, it decreased.

Listen [1:57 min]			Could they have done more? \| top of the page Josh: So, do you think there was a lax [in them providing equipment]- John: Well, it was so big, and took so much equipment, that they had different priorities. Relative to [other buildings], these buildings here were safe, and we had to beg, borrow, and plead. At least they left us, towards the end, they left us one [fire] engine- to guard this place, and to guard that one. They did leave us [some things]- they laid out [fire] hoses, and pumps, so we could, our crew, our own crew, could protect these buildings if we had to. Also, they laid out [fire] hoses up there at our lodge, so that we could self-protect them if we had to. They did us a favor by laying out all the [fire] hoses, and letting us use their pumps. Josh: Do you think they did the best they could, or- John: Well, no, it's just, you hear these stories. When the fire came over the hill, and started going down our east side, and it slowly split and was going east. We had some gal come in here from a different crew- she was in charge, and she was afraid of her own shadow- wouldn't fight fire. We had a Cat [bulldozer] sitting here three days, on the ground- didn't turn a wheel. We could have been out fighting fire- they were so afraid of getting somebody hurt. The fire camp was down here in Sula, which is ten miles away. They would be getting up at 5:00, 6:00 in the morning, [and] they would not get here, until 10:30, 11:00. Then, they'd get them out, and then they'd go through their little procedures for half an hour. So, they didn't start fighting fire until 11:30. Then the winds came up at 2:00 [pm], so they only fought fire 2.5 hours. And, [they] didn't fight any fire at night, which would of probably been our best time to fight it.

Listen [1:41 min]			Frustrations \| top of the page Josh: Did you get to do a lot of the fighting fire yourself, or- John: Well, when it initially started, we were just running support. We had our four-wheelers, and we let- these people come up here, and when they did put in fire lines, they had no ATVs. So, how's a guy check two miles of fire line, up and down hills? So, we were letting them use our ATVs for running fire line, running supplies, and things like that. That was kind of frustrating. Then, almost every day, we had a different crew in here, a different crew. They didn't know where they were at, they didn't know the terrain, and it took them that much longer to get adjusted- it was a zoo. We had one crew in here, a hotshot crew, a Bridger crew, out of Bozeman [Montana]- probably the best crew. They fought fire. They started setting backfires, and things, but we only had them one day, then they pulled out. Then, the next day, a bus comes in here, a big bus, school bus- four people get off. So, they left us with a Cat guy [for digging fire lines], a forward scout, and a crew boss, and guy for fighting fire. So, basically, what they were doing, they were going along the edge of the fire, with a Cat, and then setting backfires. They didn't think they needed our help, so they started running up and down the hill a couple three times, and then after that, we had three of our people helping them set backfires. This went on for about three weeks, trying to fight this fire that was going on the east side of our ranch.

Listen [1:03 min]			The ground is torched \| top of the page Josh: Did any of your ranch get damaged? John: Oh yeah. The state has a policy- they logged this west side over here, and they had a return slash policy, where, they took the trees out whole to a deck, cut all different logs, and had all of their slash, and then they drug all their slash back in. So, the fuel load on this timber over here on the west side was just astronomical. If you go in there today, you can see where the ground is still torched- it was so hot because of all that return slash policy they had. It was an awesome scene at night, to see all this place on fire- you'll never see it again- just the glow and things like that. It was a tough go, and, we fought this thing here for the whole month of August. We saw one day of sun. Josh: Wow- John: For the month of August.

Listen [1:33 min]			Losses \| top of the page Josh: What did you have to repair, or was any of the land completely damaged that it couldn't be grown back. John: We just, on this place here, we just got through thinning the timber, we just got through thinning it. We took out all of the little stuff, and the dead stuff, and things like that. We had it thinned to where we thought it needed to be. Well, because of the state's policy on their return slash, the fire was so hot, it just blew right through our timber on different areas. If you go back in there today, we basically had to clearcut, because there was not a single live tree left. So, we lost approximately 50-75 acres of trees, and we lost probably 400-500 acres of pasture ground, that we lost. We had to move our steers, see. I lost three pastures I never used. We planned on using them for steers, so, we took an economic loss, because we had to sell the steers early. Now, because of the fires, now, they have a moratorium on this state ground, that we lease, that is probably going to be one, two, three years, before we can go back in to graze it. They're waiting to see what happens, what comes back, what doesn't.

Listen [0:51 min]			Mudslides \| top of the page Josh: Have you experienced any mudslides? John: Very little. They were pretty good- when they [the rehabilitation crew] came back in. If the firefighters would have fought fire like these guys rehabbed, we wouldn't of had too much trouble. These rehab came in, and went to town with it. [In] A lot of these drainages, they crossed trees, and things like that, put water bars in. On our place, we only experienced [mudslides in], a couple spots where it was steep, and we have a main irrigation ditch come around the hill- it filled it in. We have to go back with our track hoe and escavate the mud, and the debris out of the ditch there, but we didn't suffer as much as the ranch down below did.

Watch [1:07 min] Listen [1:01 min]			Could it have been prevented? \| top of the page Josh: Do you think you could have done anything to prevent the fires from being [as powerful], aside from the slash being left there, or do you think it was so powerful, there wouldn't have been anything you could have done- done more? John: On this west side, I don't think there was anything you could have done. It was so hot, so big, you couldn't have got on it. On the east side, up here, if we would've had our own Cat, then I think if a guy would've fought fire aggressively, we could have put in some major fire lines, and stopped [it]. But, like I said, this woman came in here, 10:00 at night- we were setting backfires, and she pulled her people off because they had to go to sleep. This is not the time to sleep- when you're setting backfires, at night, trying to stop it in the morning. So, I think there's a lot we could have done, on the back side, here, on this east side, on the west side, no, it was too big. Especially with the wind coming up at 2:00, you wouldn't have wanted to be in the fire.

Listen [1:11 min]			Management problems \| top of the page Josh: Do you think some of the management problems with the Forest Service have to do with national control- telling the people what to do, around here, more than, would it be better if we had local control? John: Well, the thing that really hurt me, was that we've got a tremendous firefighting station right down here in Sula. The guys know the area. When this thing became a national, I don't know what, a command center- these guys got boosted out- they just became peons. So, these bigwigs come in, and, didn't know the area- we had people come over here, lost, didn't know where they were at. When the locals lost control of it, it seemed like it kind of went downhill. These guys didn't bother to ask these guys for help, any opinions, or nothing, it seemed like. Yeah, when we lost local control, we kind of lost it. It was like, or own fire chief down here, he just became a peon on the group. They were telling him what to do, and it's his district.

Listen [1:00 min]			We were threatened \| top of the page Josh: Did you ever feel that you were really threatened by the fire, or that you were not in control of it at all, in that it would really take over your ranch? John: Well, we were threatened, I think it was the time it blew out on Sula, I think it was on a Sunday, or something, or a Saturday [it was a Sunday] when it blew out in Sula. Josh: Yeah, on August 6th. John: Oh, we were up here, just a couple hired hands and I, and we had no support. The fire was heading towards the lodge, and we called, [and they said] sorry, there's no trucks available. Then, it really became frustrating, because it was all on us, to try to defend our own property, because we had no help from any fire people. It really became frustrating, when you're fighting fire, and you go down past these camps- here's three Cats, sitting here, trucks sitting there, just sitting there, not moving, not turning a wheel. It was kind of poor management on the Forest Service part- the whole fire.

Listen [1:02 min]			The wind \| top of the page Josh: I was wondering if you had any stories about the fire coming around, or any new input? John: It was just so frustrating for us, is that over here, we put a fire line in, and just worked all day and half the night, and we thought we had it whipped, and the wind came up. The wind was our biggest fighter- the wind came up, blew it around the fire line, and we lost all that day's work, and just shot off, and went down the canyon over here by our lake, and just destroyed it. Just destroyed it. It was so devastating, seeing how much timber, that we lost, and all the habitat, certainly destroyed- our whole scenic value of this ranch just decreased because of the fire.

Listen [0:45 min]			The future \| top of the page Josh: Do you think, in the future, if something like this ever happened again- I know it wouldn't happen soon, but would you be better prepared, or- John: Well, we out there and bought our own Cat, for one thing. We've purchased some pumps, and fire equipment. Usually, on these things here, if there's a lightning strike, I'm the first one on it. But, this was so huge, I mean, everything was set just right. Next time, we'll take our Cat, and we'll start putting fire line. What's the old saying, it's, "Better to get forgiveness than permission" (laughs).

Listen [2:32 min]			Policies, and a difference of opinions \| top of the page I think you'll find out, if we have a fire this year, policies will change- I think they'll fight them. There's so many people in uproar over last year, over their mistakes, that their policies will change on the way they fight fire. Last year, they just had a let it burn policy, and, they've caught enough flak over it, because we lost, what, seventy-some homes, down here in the canyon. We lost about 300 some odd thousand acres. The fight is not over with- last fall, the state wanted to come in and do their logging- environmentalists [were] upset. Josh: You never win. John: You can't win. The only thing that the state did- they got it done, because all of that timber, all went to school's trust fund. So, they didn't fight it too hard, because they'd look like idiots. If they would've fought this timber, because it goes to our kids, but now the Forest Service is having a real battle. The environmentalists want to leave it just like it is- let this [burned] wood rot, and fall and kill people, and just let it go to waste. The battle is not over with yet- we're still feeling the affects of the fire, with the mudslides. That got us here, what, two weeks ago. We're having problems now- this is problems that people don't see. Three, four, five years, we're going to have a weed problem- you wouldn't believe, because a lot of this soil is so sterile, but then when it starts coming back, we're going to have the Bitterroot alfalfa- knapweed. Knapweed, and just up here today, we've got trouble with thistles, and things like that. We're going to run into some problems later on, that people should be aware of. In their policy [of] leaving these trees, somebody is going to get killed, by a snag falling. We were in there last fall, trying to get our cattle out, and just, "Hrrroopht," a big yellow pine, fell in front of us. Josh: Wow. John: So, yeah, things have kind of calmed down, but the problems are not over yet. We're going to see bigger problems in the next three, four, five years- different scenarios, but, it's here.

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