FROM THE TESTIMONY
OF LESTER CARTER IN THE TRIAL OF CHARLEY WEEMS,
APRIL 17, 1933
Direct Examination of Lester Carter by the
Defense
(Carter begins his testimony by identifying
himself)
This is Lester Carter. I am 22. That would put
me about 19, back in March 1931. My home at that
time was in Knoxville, Tennessee. I was born and
raised in that part of the country. I know a
woman by the name of Victoria Price. I knew her
somewhere around fifty or sixty days before March
25, 1931, when this freight train ride took place
from Chattanooga towards Huntsville. I met
Victoria Price in the jail at Huntsville,
Alabama. I was confined in the city jail.
Q Was she confined in the city jail?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR.LEIBOWITZ: We except.
A I knew a man named Jack Tiller, too. I met
him in the jail in Huntsville. I later saw her
occasionally or frequently. I was very friendly
with her. That was fifty or sixty days before
this ride. I knew a girl named Ruby Bates. I got
acquainted with Ruby Bates through the Price girl
during the time I was serving time in jail.
THE COURT: Never mind about the time you were
in jail.
Q Did you and Victoria Price, Ruby Bates, and
Jack Tiller go out together?
A Yes sir.
MR. KNIGHT: I object to that.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection; that is not
evidence. Mr. Witness, you must not answer so
quick. Whenever a question is asked and objected
to, and the Court holds that it is illegal, that
puts it out of the case just as if it never
happened.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: We except.
Q I want to know-now don't answer until the
Court says you may-
if the night before you left Huntsville before
this train ride, whether or not you, Victoria
Price, Ruby Bates, and Jack Tiller, that is you
with Ruby Bates, and Jack Tiller with Victoria
Price, in the presence of each other, did not
have sexual intercourse-
THE COURT: That has been raised so often, Mr.
Leibowitz; I have ruled on that very legal point
a half dozen times, and there can't be any-
thing in it except a vicious attempt to get
something before the jury that I have ruled is
improper.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Your Honor, I won't press it
further. I want to note an exception to the
Court's ruling, especially in view of the Court's
reference to counsel-
THE COURT: I am ruling according to the law as
I understand it.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: I do this in justice to my
client; in view of the Court's characterization
that defendant's counsel made a vicious attempt
to force testimony into the record, I want to
move for a mistrial.
THE COURT: I decline to do that. If that
particular word is offensive to you, I will
withdraw that. Gentlemen (to the jury), you will
pay no attention to the expression "vicious
attempt." Don't let that enter into your
consideration or in your minds.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: We respectfully except.
A I started out at Huntsville, with Victoria
Price.
Q Where did you go from immediately before you
left Huntsville, from what part of town did you
go?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: I want to show you how they got
to the station, what the arrangements were; that
is in rebuttal of Victoria Price's testimony that
she never saw this man in her life before the
trip.
THE COURT: I will let the question be asked.
Q Tell us how it was you came to go to the
station?
THE COURT: I wouldn't allow you to ask that,
"How come them to go."
Q Did you have a conversation with Victoria
Price with reference to leaving Huntsville, you
and she and Ruby Bates, giving the details.
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: I am not going to allow him to go
into details. I will let him show that he had a
conversation, but I will not permit him to go
into details. I will permit him to ask the
witness whether he had any conversation with
Victoria Price before they left Huntsville to go
to Chattanooga. That covers the point.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: We reserve an exception to the
Court's limitation on the question.
A I had some conversation, without going into
the details of it, at Huntsville, with Victoria
Price, Ruby Bates, and also Jack Tiller, in
company with them, relative to leaving Huntsville
and going somewhere. The day and night before we
actually left that arrangement was made, around
the railroad yards in Huntsville, up near the
Lincoln Village.
Q Who was to go on that trip?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: We except.
A Pursuant to that arrangement, on the
following day, we met at the railroad yards in
the city of Huntsville. Ruby Bates and Jack
Tiller met there besides me and Victoria Price.
It was somewhere in the afternoon.
Q What happened there; what occurred when you
got to the railroad yards in Huntsville?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Exception.
Q May I ask what happened with reference to
getting on the train at Huntsville?
A We decided for three of us to go along-
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Exception.
A Victoria Price, Ruby Bates, and myself got
on the train.
Q What happened to Jack Tiller?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: Objection is sustained.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Exception.
A Ruby Bates, Victoria Price, and I got on the
inside of a boxcar. I talked very little to
Victoria Price and Ruby Bates on the way from
Huntsville to Chattanooga.
Q What was it you said with reference to Jack
Tiller?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
Q Who else was in that boxcar?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Exception.
Q Did you cross the state line of Alabama into
Georgia and the state line into Tennessee?
THE COURT: That's unnecessary; we all
judicially know they had to do that to get to
Chattanooga.
Q Was anything said about crossing the state
line, was any reason given by the prosecution,
anything specifically said, or directly about
that?
A Yes sir.
Q About these women crossing the state line,
the two state lines with you, as to what the
women should do in case you all were caught?
MR.KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: Overruled-wait a minute, I sustain
the objection.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Exception.
A Well, whatever talk we had, we finally got
to Chattanooga. These women had on overall
trousers, ladies' hats, overcoats, ladies' shoes
and ladies' hose. We arrived in Chattanooga about
eight o'clock, around eight o'clock in the
evening. We left the train in the railroad yards
there.
I first met Orville Gilley leading away from
these railroad yards, on a spur track. Victoria
Price and Ruby Bates were with me; the very same
girls that were together with me on the train. I
was with Gilley then all the rest of the night.
Q Where did you next see Victoria Price and
Ruby Bates?
A They was right there on the car then.
Q Where did you next see them after that?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: The objection is well taken,
sustained.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: We except.
A I was with Gilley all of the time from the
time we arrived in Huntsville up until the time
when we got back on the train to come to
Huntsville. I wasn't with these two girls all the
time; me and the fellow Gilley were together all
the time.
Q Listen, Carter, let me make it plain to you,
except for one or two occasions when you left
either girl for a short while to go somewhere
away from the Chattanooga yards, where you
arrived at these railroad yards that night, from
then until the following morning, did you
MR.KNIGHT: We object to that; we don't want
that to go before the jury. I think I know what
he is after.
THE COURT: Yes, and I imagine this jury will
follow the instructions of the Court. I told them
not to pay any attention to anything I ruled out.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Shall I put the question?
THE COURT: Yes, if you want to.
Q Now, Carter, did you leave these girls at
any time?
A Yes sir.
Q How many times?
A A couple of times.
Q Where was that?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: Sustain the objection.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Exception.
Q The couple of times that you went away-
MR. KNIGHT: I object.
THE COURT: Don't interrupt until he puts the
question.
Q Now the couple of times that you left, were
you gone for more than a few minutes each time?
A No sir.
Q Except for the few minutes that you were
gone, were you continuously with Ruby Bates and
Victoria Price, all through that night together,
with the fellow Gilley right near the railroad
yards in the City of Chattanooga and Hobo Swamp
there?
MR.KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection. Gentlemen,
that is excluded and you will pay no attention to
the question, or answer-I believe the witness did
answer "Yes."
A Both Gilley and I went and got food that
night in the evening and in the morning, for
supper and breakfast.
Q Did you see Victoria Price and Ruby Bates
when daylight came the following morning?
MR.KNIGHT: That is objected to.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Exception.
A The train started out from Chattanooga back
towards Huntsville near about noontime. It was
after ten o'clock in the morning. I saw Ruby
Bates and Victoria Price just before we boarded
the train, the train that we all got on in the
railroad yards in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Orville
Gilley, myself, Victoria Price, and Ruby Bates
were there. There was some other people along,
but I didn't know the others; other people
sitting on the back watching us board the freight
train.
Q For the purpose of identification, now don't
answer this if objected to until ruled on by the
Court, did you see any negroes, or did you have
any encounter with any negroes during the time
that you and Ruby Bates and Victoria Price and
Orville Gilley were together at Chattanooga?
A Yes sir.
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that.
THE COURT: I don't recall any testimony of
anybody about any difficulty in Chattanooga.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: I think the jury should be
retired so that it may be heard only by the
Court; it has reference to a consortium and
cohabitation between negroes and whites.
THE COURT: You needn't put that in at all.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: We reserve an exception.
A As the train came into Stevenson some of
these white boys asked myself and Gilley would we
help crowd these negro boys off the train; they
said if we had any man in us we would see that
these negro boys were put off the train; so after
the train left these white boys and negro boys
got into a fight; they came up closer to the car
in which we four was riding in. After the train
started out of Stevenson the scrap started
between the whites and the blacks. There were
some white boys in a gondola near where we were
riding; they came closer. They got within talking
distance. The white boys came to the next car.
They came from the direction of the caboose.
These boys were fighting.
A If it is testified here that Victoria Price,
I, Ruby Bates, and several other white men were
together in one gondola car leaving Stevenson, I
wouldn't say that. I would say us four were
together. When I left that train I walked back to
Stevenson, Alabama. I met several of the other
white boys there at Stevenson. I walked back with
some of them. None of these white boys had any
wounds that I know of that were treated in any
way in Stevenson. They were not as far as I know
treated by any doctor in the jail at Scottsboro.
Q Did you hear what Victoria Price said to
Odell Gladwell at the time Gladwell went over to
the car after she beckoned to you?
MR. KNIGHT: We object to that because no
predicate was laid.
THE COURT: I don't recall any predicate.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: I think I can state positively
that I asked Victoria Price if she didn't, in the
courthouse yard at Scottsboro, motion to one of
the boys and call him over to talk to her, and
she said no, and I then asked her if she didn't
tell that boy "You are to tell that you are
my brother." I remember that positively.
Q Did you hear what she said to the Gladwell
boy while at the auto-
mobile?
A She asked him-
THE COURT: Was the predicate laid as to this
boy?
MR. KNIGHT: Our objection goes to the form of
the question.
WITNESS: I am here to tell what happened.
THE COURT: Never mind that. I sustain the
objection.
MR. LEIBOWITZ: Exception. You are sustaining
the objection as to what occurred between
Gladwell and Victoria Price; is that because the
predicate was not laid?
THE COURT: No, because you don't follow it.
A I saw Odell Gladwell, one of the white boys,
go over to the car in which Victoria Price was
sitting, and I heard Victoria Price say to Odell
Gladwell, "One of you boys has got to play
like you are my brother; if you don't we will be
arrested for hoboing" and Gladwell answered
that it was O.K. with him, "I will be your
brother."
 
Johnson,
Claudia Durst. Understanding To Kill A
Mockingbird. The Greenwood Publishing, Inc.
Wesport, CT:©1994.
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