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Mary Starke Harper, R.N., Ph.D.

Photograph of Mary Starke Harper

...have faith, have prayer, have patience and always try to be educated and take things less personally, even though they hurt. I have a saying, that I may hurt and I may scar and I may bleed, but I heal easily.

Interview conducted by: Jeffrey Light on 9 July 1997 at 8:04 PM EDT
Q: We’re going to start this interview by asking Mary Harper a little bit about what it was like growing up in the south
A: Thank you so very much, Jeffrey. I was born in a little place called Fort Mitchell, Alabama and I’ve never seen the place, believe it or not. My parents left the place when I was about two months old. Then, they moved to a little place called Phoenix C ity, Alabama. There were eight of us children, my mother and father. As a child, I came from a very disciplined home and a home that was somewhat religious and if we weren’t in church, we were entertaining the minister. My father, however, being in bus iness, four or five different kinds of business, real estate business, wood and coal, restaurant, grocery store and etc., he had unusual, what many other kids didn’t have the experience, he had many friends who were white. And I frequently said to my fat her’s contacts frequently had dinner with us on Sunday and they would frequently visit. I frequently say that even though I was reared in the South, born in the South, I really didn’t know the impact of discrimination until I got to Tuskegee and started mixing with the kids who were from the Northern states, and from the Eastern states, and etc. when they started talking about discrimination. Even though we did have segregated housing and segregated certain water fountains were for blacks only, toilets for blacks only. We only went to town once a year so I never saw those about once a year, so that didn’t bother me very much. The impact of it really when I got to college. As a child growing up, my first obligation and my parents made it very clear, w as to do my schoolwork and to be an achiever in school. My father always said, the best thing you can do is develop your brains and nothing should take precedence over that. So as a result, I grew up having to work in a store and various kinds of busines s and etc,. The other thing I did as a hobby, I used to order chewing gum by the box and then I would go out on the street and sell it for 5 cents each, so I made about $2 off of each box of gum. The other thing I would do as a child, making money I wou ld raise white mice, and as you know they would procreate very fast. And my mother made me use all the scientific rules and etc., to keep them sanitary, keeping them clean. I sold them to the hospitals and universities to use for research. I guess at t he age of about 7 and 8 and 9 I was research-prone because I was raising white rats and selling them for research. So, as a child then fairly disciplined in terms of going to school, getting my homework. The people I associated with my father had to hav e their approval. I was not able to do the things the average child could do because I was always kind of "a bookworm," I liked to read, I liked to study, I was always a child who asked a lot of questions. So I guess, in summary, I grew up as a child in a large family whose parents were in business. My father was very innovative for a Southern man. And believe it or not, my father was the founder of the Black Republicans in that little town, in Phoenix City in Gerard, Alabama. My mother used to say I was the only child, my father was on the Board of Directors of the School Board and the Board of Directors for the Republican Party Committee. But even when I was 6 months old, my father took me to political meetings and business meetings and his pants would be wet all over with his new little baby, it never phased him at all because he had his child with him. So I grew up as a very nurtured, but very disciplined child. Very active in business, but always school was my priority.
Q: Just to give our listeners a little background, when exactly were you born?
A: I was born September 6, 1919. I am 77 years of age.
Q: Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like applying to college, being an African woman and what it was like going to Minnesota.
A: Thank you. After I finished high school, I wanted to go to college. Needless to say, we didn’t use counselors a lot in those days, your parents and the other senior friends of your parents often times determined what school you were going to and what yo u were going to take. So as a result, when I went away to college, because my parents had always been in business, I was the oldest, they expected me to go off, get an education, come back and run the family business. So, when I went away to college, I went into business administration at the request of my father. Unfortunately, my father passed. The minute after he passed, I switched my field. I did not want to stay in business, I had observed all my life how confining it was for my parents never on Saturdays or Sundays our lives were around business. So I switched from business to nursing. I wasn’t sure that my parents were going to support me and finance me if I switched. So I went to nursing where you could work part-time and get paid as well as go to school. So even if my parents didn’t continue to finance me, I would be able to do little odd jobs to finance myself plus the money the school of nursing would pay me for the services I provided for the patients. So that was one of the things. After I finished that, I wanted to go to the University of Alabama. Now, in the sate of Alabama, schools were segregated at the time; there were the White schools and then there were the schools for Blacks. The state of Alabama had a policy: if there w as anything for Whites that was not for Blacks, they would pay my tuition, I couldn’t go to a White school, but they would pay my tuition to go out state to another school. So, I applied for that money. They said, unfortunately, we do not have a degree program for White students, so we will not give you the money. Well, I didn’t have any money and I hadn’t saved any money—recently married with a child, and yet I wanted to go to Minnesota. I applied every year to six different schools: Harvard Universi ty, Yale University, University of Minnesota, University of Pennsylvania, and etc., fortunately I was accepted at six of those schools. I finally chose to go to Minnesota. Everybody asks, why did I choose Minnesota. I wanted to be a leader in the field of nursing. As I did my homework and my library work, I found out the head of the Veterans’ Administration, the head of the Army, the head of the Air Force, the Head of the United States Public Health Service. All of the top jobs in the field of nursin g were people who had graduated from the University of Minnesota. Therefore, I wanted to go to the school that graduated leaders and made leaders, etc. When I got to Minnesota, I was a problem for them I’m sure. The dean didn’t know what she was going to do with me because I was the only Black student. The dean said to me, a very lovely Swedish lady, "Mary, how did you select Minnesota?" And I said because I wanted to be a leader. I want to make it very clear, I do not want you to patronize me, I do not want you to do any favors for me because I am Black. I came here because I want the hard knocks of knowing what the viscitudes of good research and what a good education is. If you’re going to do favors for me and patronize me because I’m Black, I will not get what I came here for. So please, no favors for me. Make me meet all requirements as well as everyone else. She says, "Do you know we’ve never had a Black student to graduate." I said, "Yes I heard that, but I want you to know, you’re looki ng at the first one to graduate." I was an honors students through Tuskegee, I know Tuskegee does not meet with Minnesota, but I am disciplined, I know how to study, I’m not dumb, I’m pretty smart, and I’m willing to study, willing to work. Therefore, I want to go here. I don’t have the money to go back to Alabama and I can’t walk the water. So therefore, I’m going to stay here. I stayed at Minnesota and graduated with honors and they hired me as the first black to teach at the school of nursing at t he University of Minnesota.
Q: Can you tell me a little bit about how the students treated you at Minnesota?
A: Well, the students were predominantly Scandinavian. I had only one classmate from New York. And she was a Jewish young lady from New York. So, she and I collaborated a great deal. I didn’t have too much time to socialize at all, with the students. When I got there, the thing that was very interesting, because of segregated housing, I could not stay in the regular dormitories, so they really didn’t know where I was going to stay an d I couldn’t sleep in my car for four years. So they finally decided to put me in the international house where they had people from about 30 different countries there. So I stayed at the international house which was very cordial. The thing that’s very interesting—we didn’t have any maids to do th e cooking, so on the weekend, the person from their particular country, from Peru and Germany, there were 33 different countries in that international house, we would cook a meal that was comparable from our country. When I cooked a meal, I cooked a meal that was traditionally Southern and Black which was collared greens and fried chicken and potato pie. Nobody knew what collared greens was, they didn’t know what corn bread was. So here are these people from all these different countries eating this traditional Southern food. The other experience that was very interesting, me being black, we did things in the community room, we all had to mix for at least one hour in the community room. When we were down there, frequently we would put u p each other’s hair, do each other’s nails. When they did my hair, they had never touched black hair before. I would put oil in my hair and I had to use a very hot comb to straighten my hair. They thought that was very cruel that I had to use straighte ning comb to straighten my hair and I put oil in my hair, whereas the persons who was White washed the oil out of their hair. It was a very cultural exchange, a lot of cultural learning. I learned a lot of things from the Russians, how you make coffee, etc., they make their coffee quite differently from mine. I learned a number of French dishes. The students were very casual, it was real exciting. That was Minnesota. There were many innovative things we did, it was an excellent cultural exchange.
Q: I understand after that you moved to Michigan, can you describe a little bit what was that like?
A: Yes, I transferred to Michigan and it was very exciting because the NAACP and the Urban League had been on the (?) Administration about integrating the leadership in Veterans hospitals. By and large, in the Veteran’s Administration, patients, all Black patients had to come to Tuskegee. They could live in New York or live in Chicago, but they had to come to Tuskegee. Now, after pressures from the NAACP and the Urban League, they decided they would integrate the hospitals and I was one of the first they sent out to the VA hospital in Michigan. Needless to say, they were not ready for me and I was not accepted at all. It was like a grand parade, people passing by the office every day to see what I looked like. Of course, there was also the fear when y ou go in more qualified, overqualified than the people who are going to supervise you and you are black and this is the first time, you can imagine this was a threat. I could have felt very uncomfortable, if I had not had the backing of Washington. As I said to them, you know the kind of situation you’re sending me into, you know the kind of bias and prejudice that exists there. The content and how to be a good supervisor and a good manager and how to be a good educator, I know how to do that. But I n eed your political backing in order to be successful. That went very rugged, but I was very up front and made it very clear my primary responsibility is not to socialize with anyone White, I have my own friends. My primary responsibility is to see that the Veterans in the hospital get the best care that there is. You don’t need to worry about me socializing or wanting to come to your parties and being friendly. This other experience that was exciting there I moved to 25 Oneida, which is predominantly White neighborhood. What you have to remember is that in those days, you had segregated housing. I could not get a house, ordinarily in a predominantly White neighborhood. So I moved into a neighborhood that was changing over, but next door to a White couple, I guess who might have been in their 40’s or 50’s. Well, I’ll have you to know, they immediately, two days after, put up a fence almost as tall as the house between my house and theirs. The thing that was ironic was that her husband had a stroke one night. She was panicking, she could not get an ambulance to come. So all at once, knowing that I was a nurse, she came over and said to me, would you come immediately and see what’s wrong with my husband because I think he’s dying. I immediately w ent over there and did mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to the family who put up the fence and did not want me in the neighborhood. That was my Michigan story.
Q: Can you explain a little bit about the Tuskegee study to some of the listners who might not know about it and explain excatly your incredible role in it.
A: In the Tuskegee syphilis story, I think if you have seen the film Mrs. Evers Boys, it gives a picture of the Tuskegee syphilis story. This was a study where we had a certain number of people who was experimental—they all had syphilis. A certain number w ere given treatment and the other half were not given treatment even though they had syphilis, which meant they were left to contaminate their families, contaminate other people and eventually die of syphilis themselves. All had syphilis, but half of the m had received treatment and the other half did not. Mrs. Evers was Mrs. Unis Rivers who was my supervisor. I was doing my field work in public health with Mrs. Rivers and in Mrs. Evers’s Boys when you see that film, you’ll see that nurse that was a student nurse in there with a cap on—that was me. And I’ m the only person living that was a part of that treatment program at that particular time. People keep saying to me, how did you feel ( I was just recently interviewed at the White House ) knowing that those other people had syphilis and they were being denied treatment and they would eventually die. My response is that we did not know which patients were experimental and which ones were in treatment because that program was directed by Duke University and all patients had a number—we gave the medicati on according to the number. We did not know who had syphilis and who did not have syphilis. That was the primary thing, we knew the medication that was being given. Since then, I dislike very much what was in Mrs. Evers’s story. It gave the nurse drin king out of the same dipper as the patient and no nurse would ever do that. It indicated other social activities with Mrs. Evers who was a supervisor nurse and that was not true. So NOVA did a story right here in my living room where I told the truth ab out the whole Tuskegee syphilis story. Mrs. Evers did not know who was treatment and who was not. She did not deliberately select, she did not deliberately bribe those people into a treatment program. The selection committee was done all by the univers ity committee. We simply toured those various rural areas in a mobile bus and had schedules of people to meet us usually at a crossing or at a church and we gave them their injections according to the numbers that we had.
Q: Now since that time I understand that Tuskegee has created an endowment, a chair in your name?
A: Thank you so much, yes, Tuskegee University has created the only endowed chair in geropsychiatric nursing research in a historically Black college and I’m very proud of that. They have developed a room, special of all my various kinds of activities: book s, publications and etc. We’re looking for a person to head up that. The chair is fully endowed with $3 million. The famous Dr. Arthur Flemming who was head of HHS and also head of Social Security and the president of Antioch college, chaired my endowe d committee. With his contacts and other contacts, we were given three years to raise the $3 million and in one year we raised the $3 million. So I’m very pleased that we now have an annual nursing research conference in honor, called the Mary Starke Ha rper annual presentation.
Q: All of these events might seem like a really long time ago to people. A lot of people may feel that the kinds of racism you faced is a thing of the past. But I understand that there have been some recent events that occurred in Alabama having to do with housing?
A: Well, I thought the days were over for overt racism. Well, I had the good fortune that the state of Alabama, recognizing my various achievements in the field of geropsychiatry have built a multi-million dollar building that holds 200 patients and covers about four blocks and named it the Mary Starkes Harper Geropsychiatric Hospital. The building is uniquely designed for Alzheimer’s patients and other types of wandering patients and geropsychiatric patients and I’m very pleased with that. We have alread y been fully accredited, we have a wonderful staff, patients are well-cared for and we have a number of training programs for physicians, nurses, social workers and psychologists, I’m just very, very happy. I finally decided, with all of this that’s goin g on there, even though I’m 77 years, I have a few more years left, I should move, go down to the South and see if I cannot help them achieve some of the things they want to achieve and see that the patient could make good care. Primarily as a volunteer, I will not be getting paid. In the process, I hired about four different real estate people and I always send about four pages of what I like in a house, I like a house where you don’t enter directly into the living room, there’s a bathroom on the first floor, etc. So I usually write out about four pages of what I want. I have them to look at the houses and then once or twice, I will go down there to look around at the various real estate, houses. I finally found a house that I wanted and it was in a neighborhood where the people are predominantly health-oriented—in the health career. One person next door to me on one side is a neurologist, a neurosurgeon. To the left of the house I was trying to buy is a pharmacist, just across is a psychiatrist and there’s an oncologist, and they are all health people. I managed to get the house, the real estate woman sold me the house. Just about four weeks before time to close, I had signed the contract already, about four weeks before time for me to go for the final closing of the house with the bank, I got another contract. I said what on earth is this all about? Why would I get another contract? Is this a breach of the contract I have already? If this is what I think it is, I will not tolerate it, no t one bit. The real estate lady who was a sales lady says, "I only do what I am told." I said yes, but why did you send me this contract which is $10,000 more than the original contract and besides its a breach of contract. I finally found out from som e other people what was happening. I think the people in the neighborhood knew that the person who was buying the house was the person who the hospital was named after. But until she went and took the For Sale sign down and told them a little bit about me, they did not have any idea that I was Black. Therefore, it’s acceptable for the lady who the hospital is named after, but not acceptable for a Black lady if the hospital is named after her. Immediately, I had to get a lawyer and a friend of mine cal led and she said, "Dr. Harper, your voice sounds so down." I said, yes, I am very perplexed, I said, I just got another contract, I have a contract on the house already, I just got another contract which is $10,000 more. She said, "Yes, you know what’s g oing on." I said, I hope it’s not what I think. So she said, "I suspect it is." She told me her son was a judge and she would have him to talk with me and we hung up and he called and said, "That’s not my jurisdiction, and I think I know what’s going o n. But I have another friend who is a judge down there and I’ll have him to call you." So he called me and I asked if he would take my case, I don’t know whether it’s a breach of contract or discrimination. But the point is that $10,000 more, four days before time to close is very strange. He said, "I would agree with you" and he asked me to fax him all the records I have. I did. He went over to the bank and to the real estate and got the other records. Two days later he called and says, "Dr. Harper everything is all right. They’re going to honor the original contract." Then I was told later on by the real estate people, "Do you know who that man was the represented you legally." I said no, except he was recommended to me as a good lawyer. They sa id he’s the person who represented Mercedes and took all of that property (Mercedes bought 100 acres in Alabama and they moved out of Denmark and Germany, here to the United States) he’s the property who took all of that property from those poor, white pe ople who were farmers and so Mercedes got it. So, I said I don’t have anything to do with that, he represented me, he did a very good job. The only thing I want now is that when I move down here, he finds me a used Mercedes. That’s my Alabama story.
Q: Dr. Harper, through all of these stories you have shown incredible strength and survivorship. What is it that you could convey to some of the students listening to this interview, if you could tell the in a few sentences, sum up what you have learned.
A: I think two things that I have learned. I have learned to try to take the problem and make it less personal, to really see what is happening to me and think of a strategy for approaching it. I think it’s an old saying, take the problem and push it back a little bit so you can get a good view and you can do an analysis of it. I think that’s one lesson we’ve learned. I think the other thing that we must learn is that there will always be challenges, I personally think there will always be discrimination . I think we must learn to accept some of the things that are distasteful until we can do something about it and God give you the strength that you can help to rectify and to get into a public policy job—get into some position with some organization and help to bring about a change. The other thing I know, I was chosen as one of the top ten women in the Federal Government. They did a story of my life with the Voice of America. They were inferring that I had gone to predominantly White schools and this was my strength. I made it very clear that my strength comes from my devotion, my allegiance, my staying, being daddy’s girl, and around my father and the strategy and the handling of business I learned from him. The next thing I learned is how to pray and how to have confidence and how to have faith and how to have patience and how to bring about change. Ask for survival and patience for the change to come about. To me, it is very, very important, in a summary, in a nutshell, it is to have faith, to have prayer, to have patience to always try to educate and then take things less personal even though they hurt. I have a saying, that I may hurt and I may scar, and I may bleed, but I heal easily.

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