Interviewer:
How does it feel, heading a school for a field that is predominantly male?

Professor Angela Goh:
Uh, well, I guess it's an honor and a privilege to do that. I don't think it is particularly unique or special. I mean, within Singapore, for example, two out of four polytechnics are headed by females, although ofcourse, it is at the polytechnic level. Um, I think the heading part is basically managerial, that is administration. It doesn't indicate that technically I'm superior to anybody else. So, it so happens where managing people is concerned, I suppose I have the strength to do that. So, I don't think it is directly related to the IT field or computer engineering in general.

Interviewer:
Why did you choose IT or take up computer science as your career, or your major?

Professor Angela Goh:
Alright, this was many many years ago. So, when I was deciding on my university course, that was the start of computer science. And Singapore, in fact, did not have any courses or programs in computer science. Which is why I went to the UK to do it. I suppose it was something new, interesting, different and quite a number of us in school were very curious about was computers were about. Because at that time, there were no laptops, no PCs. The only computers being held were only large mainframes, and of course, there was something very mystical that nobody could actually have access to and I was very curious and wanted to find out more about it.

Interviewer:
So, didn't the fact that this was a field in which not many people had gone into before you, didn't it give you some sense of lack of security, wasn't there any hesitation?

Professor Angela Goh:
In fact, it was the exact opposite. It was because it was something new and because not the whole world was rushing into it at that point, not many people knew about it, that led me to do it. Something different.

Interviewer:
What are the trends that you have seen over the years, in the number of female students taking computer science as a major?

Professor Angela Goh:
Let me clarify that computer science and computer engineering have quite different profiles. Computer engineering does, in fact, have predominantly males, maybe even at one point, 90% males, 80-90% males. Computer science, on the other hand, has attracted a lot more females. For example, in NUS, traditionally, it could even be more than half. In other words, more females than males. This is, of course, not a worldwide trend. I cannot speak on behalf of North America. But, in Singapore computer science is not something females are frightened of. Computer engineering on the other hand, I think the word 'engineering' puts a lot of females off. So, traditionally in our school here, as I said, we have only 15 to 20 % females. Some years even fewer than that.

Interviewer:
What are the trends that you have seen as a professor, in the number of female IT graduates taking up IT jobs as opposed to work in other industries, after doing computer science, going into other fields like banking or management?

Professor Angela Goh:
I don't think the ratio is any greater than that of the guys. So, if you take the ratio ,in terms of, the absolute number of females with the absolute number of males and the number of people who don't get into IT, I don't think there is a great discrepancy between the two groups.

Interviewer:
So, there is no such gender difference?

Professor Angela Goh:
No. Because anyway, the number of females are fewer to start of with, especially in computer engineering, so, in terms of the proportion who go into banking or some other non related to computer engineering, I think it's the same level.

Interviewer:
Have you seen a gender divide, say with respect to the academic performance of students, as well as the jobs that student pick up after graduation?

Professor Angela Goh:
Yes, a very sensitive issue. All the females will now come after me. I must admit, the females we get, I don't mean all of them, but, in general, struggle a little bit more than the guys. You will always find some exceptions. I can think of some exceptional cases where the girls actually came out on top. But I think in general the girls find it a bit harder. I'm not sure why. Maybe, as students you could explain to me why, because some the girls seem to do less better.

Interviewer:
Well, I was just going to ask you why do you think there is this gender divide. Do you think it is something to do at the JC (Junior College) or high school level? Their upbringing, or their environment? Is it because maybe boys are exposed to computers more at an early age? What do your think is the issue?

Professor Angela Goh:
I know that one of the questions is about the technical prowess of girls and boys, and I don't believe in that. I don't believe that females are in any way, inferior in learning about logic, mathematical stuff. i don't think it's that. I'm not sure if it's because of interest, or because the guys just overwhelm them. I also don't believe that the girls work any less harder. Because sometimes you can say that they are not coping because they don't put in enough effort. I don't think it's that as well. So, I confess, that I am also a little puzzled why that is the case. Because I have seen cases of students, female students, really struggling. But, I don't have the real reason. I don't agree with the so-called theories of the right brain-left brain, that sort of thing. i don't think that for computer science, the career is affected by that.

Interviewer:
In your opinion, what can be done to bring in more female students, or girls into IT or computing?

Professor Angela Goh:
I think the question we face as a school, and in fact, the whole of Singapore, and even the rest of the world. We are having a dwindling interest in computing. It'not about male or female. It's not even about Singapore or the other parts of the world. There is a general trend. In fact, we did a survey with our own students, to see when they were applying, or when their friends, brothers or sisters were applying, what puts them off. There were a few common answers. One is they fear competition, with jobs outsourced to India and China. Why get into this area, where you're fighting with huge masses of people. That tends to be a fear. And it's nothing to do with male or female. I know it doesn't quite answer your question but there is a big concern about attracting more and better people into the field and I will not focus my efforts only on females. it would be on everybody. In a sense, it's gender blind. I'm appealing to people, I can't attract people to come. And, I'm not going to distinguish that say because you're female you should have better benefits and so on by coming. So, it a huge issue, but not something that is specific to females.

Interviewer:
Okay, and finally, the question that you've already touched over. Some researchers have stated that the male brain is more suited to processing technical knowledge than the female brain. So any further comments besides what you have already added?

Professor Angela Goh:
Well, if you look into females in computing, you will find some very important people who have contributed to the field and are female. In Singapore also, it is quite interesting to note that quite a number of the CEOs of important companies are also females, in this area. Yes, Oracle, Microsoft in Singapore, The National Computer Systems (NCS). So, I can think of quite a number of such things. So, I don't know if this statement came from male researchers but I really don't think so, atleast for programming and all that. Females have other attributes. We have the patience to de-bug. In terms of 'people skills', a lot of our systems require 'people skills' and I think females also have that edge. So I don't think that females should even worry about 'I'm going in with a disadvantage or handicap because my right side of the brain is inferior to the guys. I definitely don't think so. I know, it sort of contradicts what I mentioned earlier about the girls struggling. but, as I said there could be a number of other reasons that are not related to IQ or ability part, but some issues. maybe it's just being overwhelmed by so many males.

Interviewer:
Ma'am can you suggest something to improve the situation, to improve the interest in this field, in general .

Professor Angela Goh:
Well, we've actually been working a lot in the last few years with the Infocomm Development Authority of Singapore. When we say improve interest, it has to be at the high school level. There's no point in improving the interest in people who are any older. So, we've been starting up all sorts of games, competitions. We are giving talks to schools. and at a younger stage, we are even starting up clubs at the primary school level. As far as publicity and so on are concerned, we are also work to improve the main reasons why people are not coming. Because, in the end, we have to address those concerns. So, if you can convince people that their worries are not founded, that will also help. In our school we have a career guidance team. This career guidance team outreach to schools, talking to people in high schools and so on. We're also coming out with different programmes. IDA has different scholarships and they are coming out with all kinds of other different things. This year in 2008 they were also announcing a different scheme. Not for scholars, but for those who couldn't get a scholarship but are still very interested to include things like certifications in various large companies. So, we can't do this alone. We are partnering with various agencies, but we are doing some things.

Interviewer:
Thank you very much. It was a pleasure talking to you ma'am.